1. This post is wonderful! I have so many questions. I’m just now discovering more on this topic. I’m currently reading Reimagining Church by Frank Viola which has made me want to find a home church.

  2. saikit

    Thanks RainbowsofFaith! Stay with us here. If you want to find a home church, could you chronicle your quest in this forum? bible-verses-insights.com/forum

    I suggest you use this forum as your blog, and document your challenge, your thoughts, and your motives there for all to read!

  3. scott medhaug

    I think you are way off. the Apostles died poor. Also Paul gives the explanation after his statement and refers to some of the fruit of the Spirit and the example Paul led. Paul could of been rich but decided to live for Jesus.

  4. saikit

    Do you think that U.S. had become so rich was a coincidence? Not a blessing from God? And I didn’t say whether Paul died rich or poor. Where did you get the evidence that Paul and other apostles died poor?

    This is what Paul said.

    Phillipians 4: 17 Not that I desire your gifts; what I desire is that more be credited to your account. 18 I have received full payment and have more than enough.

    Paul had more than enough. He said it. He chose to accept the amount of donation he desired, and not more than that, so the Gospel will not be hindered by his wealth. As apostle, traveling around, and spending time in jail, has no need for so much money anyway. BTW, are you an apostle? Do you have to travel around and get persecuted? When was the last time you were chased by persecutors from city to city that you found money to be of no use?

    What was the last time you adopted a child? helped a widow? donated money to the poor?

  5. forrest s. darden jr.

    i understand the weakness of the church but not to sound selfish what do i do personally when i feel that i have prayed and prayed and yet still no change in my own powerless situation? I think we need to look to ourselves and see if we are in the faith. i don’t think we should be beating up on each other and backbiting seeing we are all in the same condition of spiritual death…

  6. saikit

    “the church”? which one. Many are as good as fake. If Jesus walks in, he would do what he did to Pharisees. They are stumbling rock to genuine believers. The church you allow to influence you will dedicate ur spirituality, and you won’t even realize it because graduately it becomes normal to you. How many Christians will end up in Hell because of the corrupting influence in their churches? Anyone can open a church anytime and create a minister job for themselves.

  7. It seems to me that your interpretation of this verse hinges on “deny the power thereof”. By taking this as the interpretive key, you pinpoint those who would deny miracles, tongues, supernatural events, faith healings, and so on.

    I agree that there are those who do deny such things today, that would fall under the category of “denying the power thereof”. I must also say, however, that I believe they are not primarily in view in this verse.

    The key to interpreting this section of verses is found in the next 4 verses:

    “For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.”

    Although they are mentioned only once in the bible, Jannes and Jambres are most likely two of the magicians in Pharaohs court that duplicated some of Moses miracles.

    If this is the case, then I believe that some of the faith healers today would fall under the category of “denying the power thereof”. Moses was able to do the miracles because God commanded them, whereas Jannes and Jambres were able to conjure up miracles on their own. False supernatural signs and wonders then could be an indicator of those who “have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof”.

    I would agree with you that those who cling to Psychology, Self Help, New Age movements (all of these are HUGE in the Christian Church today) are in this camp as well. There is no power in any of those.

    I believe that this verse speaks of those who ultimately teach that people can do all things for themselves. They look godly, but they deny the power in that they deny that the power to do all things comes from God. This can be true on both ends of the spectrum; those who preach self help psychology philosophy,etc, and ALSO those who preach that if you have enough faith, God will heal you, prosper you, etc. Both deny that all the power comes from God, and both say the power to change comes from within (philosophy or having enough faith).

    A last note on “having enough faith”. My favorite example of faith in action in Scripture is probably the Centurion in Luke 7. He understood the power of God; and he understood rightly that God’s power was the creative force that would heal his servant, not his own faith. This is a distinction that I believe many miss.

    Faith healers call upon their listeners to make their own faith the target of their faith. “Believe enough and you will have it!” In this way, they “deny the power of God”, because they cause people to believe in their own faith rather than God, whose power is limitless and who is not constrained by peoples faith or lack of faith.

    In contrast, the centurion understood the power of God, so he said “simply say the word and it will be done.” He was commended for having a faith unmatched in all of Israel.

  8. Christ follower

    I do believe that many modern churches have lost the simple message of the gospel – to be conformed to the image of Christ. And God supplies the power to do it through the new birth and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

    For many, the gospel is just fire insurance.

    Look at all the gospel tracts – how many talk about living like Christ? Instead modern evangelism has changed the gospel to make it attractive – free ticket to heaven…best if God is not there !!!

    No wonder there is no power in their lives – there has been no conversion. It has been substituted by ‘mental agreement’ or just say the sinners prayer. Where in the bible does it teach that saying the sinners prayer will make a person ‘born again’?
    This teaching has crept into the church in the last century – the church never taught that prior. Surprised?

    So the church leaders invent ‘attractions’ to keep the people:
    – socials instead of fellowships
    – food instead of studying the word
    – Christmas lists instead of church prayers

    When was the last time you heard the pastor or leader teach people that they need to seek to be like Christ? to live godly holy lives by God’s Spirit.

    We have substituted genuine Christianity with ‘activities’
    No wonder there is no power.

    I hope readers will pick up the little book ‘power through prayer’ by E.M.Bounds. It will open your eyes to what is happening into today’s pulpits

    It’s my theory that the true church is a small group of believers, and they’re scattered in many churches and grieved over what is happening in the visible church.

  9. saikit

    “It’s my theory that the true church is a small group of believers, and they’re scattered in many churches and grieved over what is happening in the visible church.”

    I agree.

  10. TMP

    I’ve returned to my full gospel, spirit-led, biblebased, church after having been influenced by a friend’s nameless ‘house church’ which turned out to be church of christ (non-institutional) – wikipedia covers it.
    They shun healing signs & wonders, and anything pentecostal for the sake of their relational evangelism.
    It was wonderful to have someone who made themself available to me constantly, yet they maintained the grudge against the ‘ institutional church’ when I clearly saw the Lord show up during worship, and bring peace & rest to me and others, and especially the fact that I was healed of lactose intolerance – they still tried to get me to ‘not focus on the in order to focus on discipleship’ – the book Twisted Scriptures speaks of their form of controlling discipleship, sadly.
    I think of them in the verse ‘ form of godliness but denying the power.
    I sense the Lord has me keep my friendship, but stay wary of the clear differences in our beliefs.
    The one reason I thot ofas to why – if my friend sees the truth & needs support to leave the church, I’ll be there..
    Among the other relationships I’m investing myself into, our church has canceled it’s wed nite service & adopted the weekly home group model to develop lasting relationships within the body of christ. It’s brilliant! It’s the ideal of what the house church tries for, but without manipulation or control. Support that is give & take – both. But you won’t be cut off or emotionally abandoned for the sake of ‘ the house church’ like my friend did to me & to many others under the guise of ‘ tough love’ bc I fought him on the red flags that their doctrines cause in those who know the truth.
    It’s scary and sad to me that my friend won’t see the difference, and I think it’s bc he is so tied in by codependency to his ‘ brothers’ in the house church – I pray the Lord opens his eyes. His name is Matt if u can pray for him also.
    I’m leary of several things in this website, but accepting Jesus and his power to heal and save and change ppl – so you ‘ know them by their fruits’, it takes place when we open up fully to him, receive from him, and live a life abandoned to him daily – not burning out but using his wisdom too…lol – this spirit-led existence is the true faith that overcomes the world – institutional or not. God’s choice!!
    – Tom Porter

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