15 Comments

  1. It is important to note that when you first come to Christ, as a lost sinner, you can’t help but to first repent before you get saved. When I truly came to Christ I had to realize that I was a sinner, & in consequence, completely lost. I had to agree that He was completely right about me & that I was wrong. In consequence to that I had to confess my sinful nature, my sorrow & regret for this and then promptly ask Him to forgive me my sins. At that very moment that all of this was said & done (accomplished) I was truly saved!

    As you learn & grow as a christian (spiritually wise) you realize that there’s always more repentance & confession to be done because of the old nature (the old man) that’s still inside of our inner being. One day we wll no longer have this corrupt nature (the carnel minded man) in us but only the Christ like nature (the new nature He gives us when we get saved) forevermore. Thereby, complete & permanent perfection is not for here below but rather for the “Hereafter”! As for the sins that we could not bring up before the Lord, those that we long ago forgot about or that went unbeknownst to us, they are completely covered & cleansed by the shedding of His (Jesus) precious blood when He died on the “Cross”.

    I would have more to share on the subject of “repentance & salvation” but it would be much too long & painstaking for me to do.
    In Christ, Patrick G.

  2. saikit

    “Thereby, complete & permanent perfection is not for here below but rather for the “Hereafter”! ”

    That’s not true, see the bible verses below:

    Matthew 5:48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect

    2 Corinthians 7:1 Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.

    Colossians 1:28 We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ.

    James 1:4 Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

    “As for the sins that we could not bring up before the Lord, those that we long ago forgot about or that went unbeknownst to us, they are completely covered & cleansed by the shedding of His (Jesus) precious blood when He died on the “Cross”. ”

    You are merely reciting a theology, where is your biblical support?

    The Bible says otherwise:

    Isaiah 29:15-16

    15 Woe to those who go to great depths
    to hide their plans from the LORD,
    who do their work in darkness and think,
    “Who sees us? Who will know?”
    16 You turn things upside down,
    as if the potter were thought to be like the clay!
    Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it,
    “You did not make me”?
    Can the pot say to the potter,
    “You know nothing”?

    Ecclesiastes 12:14

    14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
    including every hidden thing,
    whether it is good or evil.

    1 Corinthians 4:5

    5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.

    1 John 1:9

    9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

    Psalm 19:12

    Who can discern his errors? Forgive my hidden faults.

    Psalm 32:3

    When I kept silent, my bones wasted away through my groaning all day long.

    John 16:8

    When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment:

    The reason why a person would forget about hidden sin is this:

    1 Timothy 4:1-2

    The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

    The only reasons why they forget about their sins and that their sins went “unbeknown” to them are because their “consciences have been seared with hot iron”, and that they have “quenched the spirit” (1 Thess 5:19)

    They refuse to confess their sins and repent, and they ignore the prompting of the Holy Spirit, whose job is to convict sinners of their sins (John 16:8) Through repeated denial and self-deceive, they sear their own conscience, and eventually even forget about their hidden sins.

    “As you learn & grow as a christian (spiritually wise) you realize that there’s always more repentance & confession to be done because of the old nature (the old man) that’s still inside of our inner being. ”

    This is my response:

    Galatians 2:20
    I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

    2 Corinthians 5:17
    therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

    Patrick, there are many deadly beliefs in what you have written here. Those who believe them will only find more imperfections, hidden sins, and other problems. Whatever we believe and say will shape us, because “the heart is the wellspring of life” (Proverbs 4:23)

    But if we believe in the truth, the truth will set us free.

  3. Homer Isaac

    Something is really wrong here. I don’t think you should be preaching about salvation.

    The bible verses should not be used individually, because out of their contexts they may be interpreted wrongfully, some may just simply be wrong if used individually. That is why reading the bible as a whole and not just as individual verses is important, because reading just one verse may lead you to a conclusion which may not be the same when it is read in its context.

    Just like you saying “repenting before believing and not vice versa” and basing it just on 1 verse is completely miss guided, because one cannot truly repent unless he has fully realized that he is a sinner, and one cannot be in that state of realization without him believing. So in saying that one must repent first before believing is miss guiding, cause a non believer being preached this way may think that he can just utter his repentance then believe later to be saved. So you see taking a verse and interpreting it as a verse alone is miss leading.
    REPENTANCE WITHOUT BELIEF IS LIKE SAYING SORRY WITHOUT REMORSE.

    And your preaching is leaving out the most important thing about salvation and pointing out that repentance is the main key to salvation is WRONG. Faith is the key, but it comes in a package with repentance, and belief and acceptance.

    Your preaching about repentance may mislead nonbelievers, like others who has preached in the same manner you do.
    You are pointing out that just by keeping on repenting your sins God will forgive you and that you will not die in sin. This is good if you preach it with the other ingredients of salvation to guide them. Cause your preaching implies that repentance will save you, WHICH WILL NOT. like some misled devotes and nonbelievers seeking for guidance that don’t have a biblical background who just listens to what preachers say and not understand them as they should be understood, believe that just by going to the confession chamber to confess and repent their sins will save them.

    And you putting a heading their to teach people to know if their saved or not, is a great mistake. which misleads a lot of people. I always see pamphlets being given out that says the same, “how do i know i am saved?”. This misleads, because some people that are not sure of their faiths that read this stuff which says exactly like what you say,
    “You can be sure that you are saved RIGHT NOW. As long as you are not refusing to repent of any known sin, as long as you have a good relationship with God, and as long as you believe that salvation can only be obtained by grace, through faith, in our lord and savor Jesus Christ, then you can be absolute certain that you are being saved. If you shall die at this moment, you are going to heaven.” This people who are not sure of their faiths would think oh im saved cause everything that was just said fits me. but in fact was not saved cause he didnt even know he was saved until he read the pamphlet. So another soul has just been misled. The fact is no teaching can tell a person if he’s saved or not, it is the person himself who can only tell if he’s saved or not. If one is saved then he doesnt need to ask questions. So this teaching people to know if their saved or not is very wrong, and very misleading. Teach them how to be saved, not teach them to know if they’re saved or not. Do you see the impact and the trap of teaching others how to know if they’re saved or not?

    And you preaching that a man saved through faith and grace that commits a sin and dies and has not confessed will go to hell is wrong. The bible states that the Lord is a just God, if one has been faithful and because of circumstance had to lie in order to save someone else’s life and ends up dead in the process and was not able to repent, do you think one would go to hell?

    Maybe you should ask yourself if your saved or not?

  4. Daniel

    greetings. i have just created a youth chat program and a planning to build a website. i was browsing your materials and would want to ask for permission to copy items from your website and use them for some of the articles we have discussions on with youths.. is it possible…?

  5. brad

    saikit, so let’s say that everything you said was correct, how do you reconcile your view to Paul’s description of himself and his sin in Romans 7? He calls himself ‘unspiritual’ and goes on to say he does not understand what he is doing (in reference to his sinful nature). Should one then assume that since Paul, one of the early church fathers, was not aware of his sin and therefore could not repent of it, that he is in hell? If this is the case then we might as well all cut our loses now and live in the world and sin it up because we can never compare to Paul and his holiness! See Philippians 3 where Paul says he has more reasons for confidence in the flesh than any other man.

    Your theology is flawed my brother.

  6. saikit

    You may want to read Romans 8. Also, for what he said in Romans 7, nothing he said contradict the need to repent. Repentence isn’t boosting or bragging (confidence in the flesh).

  7. brad

    I’ve read Romans 8, and I understand that repentance is not boasting or bragging. But you failed to reconcile your view with Paul’s description of his sin in Romans 7. Paul was saying everything I do (almost) is evil. He says in 1 Timothy that he was the worst of all sinners. I’m sure you agree that like Paul, we are all sinners. But Paul doesn’t go on then to say that he needs to repent. He goes on to praise God that he is saved through Jesus Christ. Which is his conclusion in 7 and the crux of his argument in 8.

    Paul choosing to not boast in the flesh is him realizing that through his attempts to do anything right, he falls short. We are “in Christ” like Paul says he was at the end of Romans 7 if we believe in the the word of truth that we hear (Ephesians 1:13) Again, no talk about a need to continually repent, but a guarantee based on belief in what Christ has done for us.

    I don’t have time to refute all of the scripture you used, but many of your passages are taken slightly out of context. And most of the scripture you reference for a need for continual repentance is from the O.T. Which, I believe Christ says in Matthew 5 that he did not abolish the law (it is good, to show us our need for Christ’s death) but to fulfill it. We no longer have to come to God based on works . . . including repentance for all our sins!

    I do agree with all your scripture on our need for repentance for salvation! Thank God that you are preaching the gospel to people, my brother! But the need for continual repentance is no where to be found (in regards to salvation) in the N.T.

  8. saikit

    Did you notice how Paul’s faith increased from Romans 7 to 8? Romans 7 was a stage in his life when he didn’t understand his losing battle with sin, but in Romans 8: 1-2

    “1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death.”

    We are set free from the law of sin and death already Brad.

    “And most of the scripture you reference for a need for continual repentance is from the O.T”

    Not really.

    “many of your passages are taken slightly out of context. “

    Show me how or what you said are simply unfounded accusation.

    “We are “in Christ” like Paul says he was at the end of Romans 7 if we believe in the the word of truth that we hear (Ephesians 1:13) Again, no talk about a need to continually repent, but a guarantee based on belief in what Christ has done for us.”

    Romans 7 and 8 talks about Paul’s struggle with sins, and his failure to conquer sin with his flesh, and his disovery of the power of the Holy Spirit and his new life in Christ as a way to be freed from active sinning. There is no talk about repentence because it is not about repentence. Repentence isn’t the topic in the two passages at all.

    Romans 7 and 8 also don’t talk about the End time, Rapture, and Hell, so does that mean there is no End Time, no Rapture, and no Hell?

  9. brad

    This will be my last post because I don’t have time to sit down and type responses up every night. I will read your response and thank you for the conversation.

    Stage in his life? You definitely mean current stage, correct? “. . . I am unspiritual.” “I do not understand what I do.” “. . . it is sin living in me.”

    Yes, we are dead to our sin nature in that death does not hold us anymore, but we sin all the time! The sin we have in us is so prevalent that Paul he keeps on sinning! You really think God wants us to keep tabs on all our sins after we have accepted his sons death so we can confess them? Sounds like grace with works to me, not like the verse you pointed out that we are no longer condemned only if we are in Christ!

    That’s my point is that there is nothing we can do to ever lose our salvation . . . including not repenting for all our sins.

    I agree that Romans 7 & 8 are not about repentance and that was never my point. But, as you say if we need to repent for all our continual sinning, it seems as if that would be the perfect place in God’s perfect word that we would hear Paul start to repent for his sins. But he does not. Because we are not to dwell on all the bad we have done, but to focus on God and the good things he has done for us. In summation of all that, we are way too sinful to ever understand all our sin and to repent for all of our sins. Jeremiah says it well, chapter 17 verse 9

    The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; who can understand it? I, the LORD, search the heart . . .

    Romans 7 & 8 doesn’t talk about lots of things, so no, it doesn’t mean they don’t exist. I never was arguing that.

    as for your verses you cite.

    1. “Repentance is as needed. Anytime the Holy Spirit convicts you of a particular sin (John 16:7-8). . . ” This is not talking about individual Christians and individual sin. They use the word world or kosmos. This in no way implies individual sins, but the fact that all humanity is separated from God because of sin.

    “. . . you have to repent and confess it right there and then, no matter how long ago you have committed it before. (1 John 1:8-9)” Not correct context. He is talking here to believers who were encountering false teaching. He is talking under the umbrella of the light. He goes on in chapters 1 and 2 to refer to ways that the believers can know who is speaking truth and who is not. He tells them if people confess their sins that means they are probably more believable and trustworthy than someone who says they are without sin. Ironically enough, John goes on to write in chapter 2 verse 12 “I am writing to you who are God’s children because your sins have been forgiven through Jesus.” Christians for all time have had their sins forgiven but this is only because we accept Christ’s death. Once we accept it, we no longer need to continually repent!

    Your next two verses under this section about repenting of all our sins whenever God convicts us are 1 Thessalonians 5:19 and Ephesians 4:3. I think however, you mean 4:30 as 3 does not talk at all about quenching the spirit.

    These are both fairly straight-forward, although, I guess not obviously. 1 Thessalonians 5:19 is at the end of a book and Paul is summing up how the church should act towards each other. Quenching the Spirit is not related to the repentance of sin . . . at all! I don’t know how anyone could pull this out of the passage. Major stretch. As for Ephesians 4:30 the same can be said. This is talking about Christian living; how we are to live as people who have been set free. If we don’t live as God has given us the privilege to (as those without sin) we grieve the Holy Spirit who lives inside us. Not surprisingly enough, to me anyways, the link you provided talking about quenching the Holy Spirit itself mentions not a single thing about that being so if we don’t repent! May want to go back and read that.

    Then you quote Psalm 19:12 & 13. It’s ironic to me that you quoted this, where David says cleanse me from all the hidden faults that I’m not even aware of, yet you told someone in a previous response to their comment that people are believing demons and have their hearts seared with hot irons if they can’t remember all their sins. You go on to say,

    “Through repeated denial and self-deceive, they sear their own conscience, and eventually even forget about their hidden sins. ” Which is it my man? You think this man of God right here, since he couldn’t even remember his sin is rotting in hell because he didn’t specifically confess it?

    Not to mention that this was before the Spirit had been given to believers through the death of Jesus, therefore David had no way to realize he was a sinner except from the law. Which the N.T. says we’ve been delivered from!!

    Man, all your passages from Psalms that you quote you are jumping back and fourth. Saying that David prays that God will forgive the sins he can’t remember, but then you end that section with “He didn’t just believe and confess some easy, general, and broad term sins in an one-size-fit-all, one-and-only-once-in-a-lifetime prayer, but he actively seeks forgiveness from God when God convicts him of specific transgressions.” Um, well, according to your earlier Psalms explanations, he did!! Your going back and fourth here, sir! What is it?

    It’s funny how you quote Ezekial as well, but you conveniently stop at verse 28. He says shortly after that if they repent and turn away from all their wicked ways then sin will not be their downfall. Now, he is either saying repent and live a perfect life and sin will not be your downfall, Or, turn from your way of sin, and live your life for God? With God as our focus, we will not be focused on sin. Doesn’t mean we won’t sin, as you and I agree on, but that through turning from the law (any way we try and get right with God under our own power, including trying to repent for all sins!) and towards God and his ways, he will not let sin lead us to death, but he will lead us to eternal life! This passage is not about the need to repent for every sin that we commit. This is a transition that Ezekial was using as well from the corporate sense of Israel being fatalistic and irresponsible about their own sin. So he gave a better understanding that God would judge individuals sins, apart from the corporate sense as a nation only. There’s a lot to this, all of which I don’t understand completely. However, what it is not is a prescription that one needs to repent for all their sins.

    Again, I’m sorry I can’t continue this as I just don’t have the time. I hope that this blesses the people who read your blog, and that God uses you for his glory however he seems fit.

    Thanks brother (I guess I’ve assumed this whole time you were male, so if you’re not, then thanks sister)!

    Brad

  10. saikit

    “Stage in his life? You definitely mean current stage, correct? “. . . I am unspiritual.” “I do not understand what I do.” “. . . it is sin living in me.””

    No, it was a stage in his life, and toward stages in life where he had more faith and understanding, he found “the law of the Spirit who gives life has set him free from the law of sin and death”. This law he was talking about isn’t the “OT laws” that you mentioned here, but a “law of sin and death” that causes us to sin. We are now free from this “law” because of the law of the Holy Spirit and life to sustain us and lift us above sins.

    “The sin we have in us is so prevalent that Paul he keeps on sinning! “

    I disagree.

    Before Paul recounted his experience with struggle in sin, he already mentioned this in Roman 6:

    For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

    There are more passages than that, in every part of the New Testament, but I digress.

    “Romans 7 & 8 doesn’t talk about lots of things, so no, it doesn’t mean they don’t exist. I never was arguing that.”

    Oh no, you did argue for that. Quote: “But Paul doesn’t go on then to say that he needs to repent…Again, no talk about a need to continually repent…”

    Now move on.

    “Quenching the Spirit is not related to the repentance of sin . . . at all”

    So a Christian who refuses to repent, will not grieve or quench the Spirit because of unrepentance? So you think the Spirit is neutral to unrepentance? (at all?)

    “yet you told someone in a previous response to their comment that people are believing demons and have their hearts seared with hot irons if they can’t remember all their sins. You go on to say,”

    Straw man is committed here. I didn’t say that. You mistaken a Bible verse that I quoted within my context and said “I told someone… believing demons…hot irons if they can’t remember all their sins” I didn’t say any of that. I did have a Bible verse quote that contain “demons” and “seared with hot irons” though. See the context.

    “if they can’t remember all their sins…”

    Where did I demand others to remember all their sins?

    “Then you quote Psalm 19:12 & 13. It’s ironic to me that you quoted this, where David says cleanse me from all the hidden faults that I’m not even aware of, yet you told someone in a previous response to their comment that people are believing demons and have their hearts seared with hot irons if they can’t remember all their sins. You go on to say,

    The same straw man that I just talk about. You put words into my mouth. So I am not responding to this bunch of words in blue since I didn’t even say something like that.

    “Through repeated denial and self-deceive, they sear their own conscience, and eventually even forget about their hidden sins. ” Which is it my man? You think this man of God right here, since he couldn’t even remember his sin is rotting in hell because he didn’t specifically confess it?”

    Total false delimma here. The quote by me you wrote here was talking about those who repeatedly deny and deceive themselves about their “known sins”, sins that the Holy Spirit brought to their conscience through convictions, and yet they continue to deny it and deceive themselve, and thus sear their conscience and quench the Spirit.

    What King David did, however, was to humbly ask God to forgive his hidden sins, sins that God hasn’t brought to his attention yet. This should be our prayers everyday.

    The two has no conflict at all, but you perceived them to be, so it is “false delimma” here, which is a logical fallacy.

    I can’t go on with the rest with your comment, because everything was so out of line. It seems that your obvious seminary training in the school of Calvinism has diluted and twisted sound logic in your study of the Bible, your understanding of what others are saying, your exposition, and so on and on.

    Your wordy description of your understanding of Ezekiel 18:23-28 sounds so… wordy and incohesive.

    It’s funny how you quote Ezekial as well, but you conveniently stop at verse 28. He says shortly after that if they repent and turn away from all their wicked ways then sin will not be their downfall.

    There is no shortly after. It is exactly verse 28 when God tell them that “if they repent and turn away from all their wicked ways then sin will not be their downfall.” (using your own words just to make it clear that I am responding to your exact words here, but each time you paraphrase something here something is off. Like the “straw man” you committed earlier, which means “putting words into my mouth” by “paraphrasing” my words or taken things out of context)

    Exactly, which is my point here—if they repent!

  11. whatdoesitmean

    Hello. I have question. My question is not whether repentance is necessary, because it’s clear from Scripture that it is (and thank you for listing so many sources). But my question is: what exactly is repentance? I can’t find anywhere in the Bible that it says you must “repent from sin” to be saved. I’m also reading that the meaning of the word “metanoeō” was translated into English as “repentance” but was a word that meant “change of mind.” Couldn’t it mean changing your mind about believing in Jesus? I really want to get this right, of course, not only for myself but as I share the Gospel! Thank you.

    p.s. To kindof tag something on to that, what do you think it means in Acts 2:38 when Peter says to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins? Do you believe you have to be baptized to be forgiven?

    I’m really trying to clarify possible conditions for being saved. I don’t want to preach, or believe in, a false salvation.

    However there are sooo many Scriptures about simply believing to be saved too (in John alone we have 3;16, 6:47, 11:25, 20:31 but also others such as Romans 10:9 I was just reading). Thank you, again.

    (found some more–Acts 16:31, Romans 3:21-30, Ephesians 2:8-10, Philippians 3:9, Galatians 2:16)

  12. saikit

    You cannot “change your mind” without real change in behavior and attitudes.

    For example, read the follow verses:

    2 Peter 2:20
    If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

    John 5:14
    Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, “See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.”

    So repentance is not just a nominal change, but a real, consistent attempt to change everything that is wrong—your mind, your attitude, and your actions.

    “However there are sooo many Scriptures about simply believing to be saved too”

    Read my article “Can You Lose Your Salvation?” http://bible-verses-insights.com/2009/10/can-you-lose-your-salvation-unforgivable-sin/

  13. Wonderingmyself

    You never answered what does it mean say, on April 10th. I was wondering the same.

  14. Tim Morton

    Your teaching is false. I pray that God will show you why. Others have posted good reasons why it is false and it is hard to add much to what they have already said. I will just say this; you, nor anyone on the face of the earth has ever loved God with the perfect love that He requires from His commandments and never will have that ability no matter how close you think you are to God. It simply is not in us to love that way. Therefore we will be in unrepentant sin when we draw our last breath here. How can you be saved if your teaching is correct?

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